*George Oboh did not lie against EFCC thieving
*My recall was properly conducted but…
Let me ask you another question here. After you people must have recovered such loot under whose custody were these monies kept?
Let’s not deviate from the question you asked me. I am coming to that. These are reports from the EFCC to their offices. These are just samples of reports. I have copies of all reports because a copy of the reports were usually sent to the Head of the Civil Service, our observations are drawn and then they will send me a copy and we will sit down as a team to go through the observations. The same documents go to the DSS, Police, NIA and other security agencies. They write their reports, including the Public Complaints Commission.
Now, let me come back to the recovered items. We recovered, aside from the N282 billion, we were able to bring information and caught 43 suspects, N1.6 trillion cash, investments and properties were recovered. Now, these recoveries were done by the EFCC and kept by the EFCC. Now, you need to ask EFCC about these recoveries. Where are these monies?
You may recall somebody called Mr. George Oboh, I saw him on TV accusing EFCC of stealing N1.9 trillion. He wasn’t lying and I was wondering people were just challenging this guy. He was telling the truth. The problem is he didn’t have the documents I have. If he had the documents that I had he would have…It is like a dog without teeth. I have the documents. But I didn’t want to lose my life, so I left them.
In these institutions, people are behind these people. They are big people in Nigeria and you can’t fight them.
Like somebody just sent me a WhatsApp message because I can receive WhatsApp message here. The person was saying ‘you have to be careful, you cannot fight Magu because he is a rock and he is the only person who has the listening ears of the president and so if you come to the National Assembly hearing and you testify against the EFCC you will be killed before you get to your house.’ And I replied the person and said ‘look, nobody takes life but God and I am not fighting Magu. Magu is…’
(Cuts in) So they are threatening you not to appear before the National Assembly Committee?
They are threatening me, my lawyer, my brothers and sisters. They have threatened us all. In fact, somebody threatened that my family will be annihilated if I go and testify. Now, this issue is…I ask Mr. President specifically; Mr. President if you really want to know the truth and you want to be fair to the whole nation, do not side EFCC please. Give the opportunity to everybody to come and present their cases. Let’s have a public hearing because there are so many things that people are not telling you Mr. President.
If I get to that hearing I will tell you some things nobody ever told you. I have not had the opportunity to sit down with you and I am telling you Mr. President that I will give you information and documents that will fetch you N3 trillion in Nigeria. If I don’t do it, give me nine months. Within the first three months I will show you N1 trillion just like I showed you N1 trillion in this year 2017 and I will show you again.
You mean from the time you re-appeared you were able to recover some money?
Let me go back to the appearance, disappearance and whatever. When I received with shock the letter of dismissal…I didn’t even receive the letter. I heard about it. My lawyers went to court and sued the Senate. The court quashed whatever was in the report of the Senate. The Court also quashed the warrant of arrest and ordered my reinstatement. That was in April 2013.
But the last administration, that is the Jonathan administration refused to take me back to my job. They refused to obey court order. That Head of Service then was asked not to return me to office. The then Chairman of the Federal Civil Service Commission did not want me to return to office. So I didn’t return to office. But when this government came in, the government of the people by the people and for the people, run by a president that we love, a president that stands for the truth, a president that Nigerians depend on for their lives, this president gave his nod and said ‘go and sit down with Maina. I have given the approval.’
They sat down with me after the security agencies cleared me of any wrongdoing. Nobody has ever taken me to court in Nigeria. I want Nigerians to know. I have never been taken to any court of law. I have sued all these security agencies you are talking about and I have won.
I have four court judgments. They placed my name on Interpol; I went to court and removed it. They did this, I removed it. There is nothing they have not done. Even when they could not do anything, they went to the Immigration and put my name on no flying list. I went to court and the Court awarded me N2 million for not flying that day. I didn’t even approach the Immigration for that money.
You know what? When I wasn’t in the office, when I was away, I got a job as an analyst for African countries. What I do is sit down with them and analyse things for them and they made a lot of recoveries silently. Now, as soon as this government decided to sit down with me, I said ‘okay I will not leave you to go back to Nigeria without anything in your pocket.’ The Minister laughed, the Minister of Justice and he said ‘what are you going to give us?’ and I said ‘I am going to give you guys a gift.’
He said ‘where is the gift?’ I said ‘here is the gift.’ I gave him a document and I said ‘go here, here, here, here and here there is N3 trillion they are going to steal because they have been stealing every year.’ He was shocked and said ‘it was not possible.’
I said ‘sir, with due respect, could you try this?’ This is a gift I am giving you. I haven’t gotten to Nigeria yet, this is a gift because I know where I am coming from. People do not know I studied Information Technology and I know how to operate it and I have my systems.
Now I am not trying to brag here I only came with the western mindset of coming to fix the situation. I am not a saint but I try as much as I can to help the system. I cleared the pensioners under the Abuja bridges. Everybody knows that.
When I gave the Minister that document, he thought that was not possible. When he got back, he realised I gave him the correct information and intelligence. After that information, he asked me when I would be back and I told him I would soon be back. So I asked my lawyer to write a petition and he did so. The Minister set up a committee to look into that.
They looked at the petition and recommended that this is a court order and that there is no question of going back on it. Nobody has appealed so government must obey it. So, he sent a letter to the Federal Civil Service Commission to say ‘this is the report in my office. I am attaching a Court order.’ But the next thing I heard was that he is directing, directing people to obey the court order. No. He said ‘you must obey the court order’ because he is the law officer of the land.
I went to the Federal Civil Service Commission, they told me they are going to sit down and look at it. After their meeting, they wrote the Office of the Head of Service and said ‘we want you to sit down with your senior staff committee and send it to the Ministry of Interior’ which was used at that time because they were coerced because I later learnt of what transpired.
The Directors, the senior staff committee were coerced by Mr. Isa Bello Sali to make sure they send me out because I had stopped the inflow of N5.2 billion monthly to the Head of Service. I went to the Ministry of Finance to say the actual money that was supposed to go to the Head of Service was N825 million. She said ‘no, no, no. The Minister could not blame me.’
She (Dr Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala) said she would not stop the payment of N5.2 billion. I told her police pension needed only N482 million. Then she said ‘Maina, I am not going to listen to you and stop sending this money.’ So I said ‘you will be sending money to people who will steal.’ I kept going back and forth because it was the issue that touched me. Nigerians do not sit down to read in between the lines.
The moment I say ‘he is a thief and he has stolen money’ everybody just goes out. How we recovered money in somebody’s house we do not go with camera to somebody’s house like a TV show and start blaring sirens. You want to raise money? How did I raise the N1.3 trillion? Did I go to somebody’s house? I gave intelligence, one that led the government to go and discovered the money.
This is how we do it. We are supposed to work in synergy because this government is an opportunity for Nigerians to ensure that we put this country ahead. This president is the kind of president we need to stay in this system for a long time. Now, this is the opportunity we have and you get it only once. People are fighting me because they are thieves, they are scared and they don’t want me to expose them. I am not about exposing people, we are about making things right. Just work with me and everything will be fine.
Let me interject here. Initially you were accused of stealing N195 billion. Later on Senator Kabiru Gaya came out to say that money was not missing. He said it is in an account that has not been used. Now, you recovered N1.6 trillion which was kept in the Central Bank account…
(Cuts in) No. Let me correct that statement. N282 billion was kept in the CBN account. That was the cash that we recovered. This is different from N1.6 trillion. The N1.6 trillion was as at November, 2012. The money has increased tremendously now. I think it is about N1.9 trillion or N2 trillion now. I was doing some researches and I found some monies that have gone into certain accounts. This is what I know how to do.
So under whose custody is the money now?
The EFCC. They have been keeping these monies. They have been keeping investments, the money, the houses, but these houses are disappearing. What I am saying is: I am not accusing EFCC of stealing. What I am saying is account for these monies; account for at least these ones that I know; N1.6 trillion in cash, investments in properties. Account for these then we’ll know then we move ahead. People accuse me of N195 billion; Senator Kabiru Gaya came out and said it was a lie they made mistakes.
Where did the N2.1 billion come from?
The N2.1 billion was the total sum that the office of the Head of Service spent for the conduct of the biometric exercise that brought the N1.6 trillion. So, it’s like somebody is giving you investment of N2.1 billion and you went and did investment that brought N1.6 trillion and that one is fighting you for the N2.1 billion. Let me make things clear.
I was never given N2.1 billion. The office of the Head of Service was the one in charge of that biometric. The PRTT nor myself never had access to any budget. The National Assembly, Ministry of Finance are there to confirm whether they have ever approved money for us or not. The Head of Service is there to also confirm. Look this is a challenge I gave out in 2012. I said if there is anybody who can show me where money was given to me, let the person come out and say so.
But as Chairman of the PRTT are you not a signatory to the account?
No. The Accountant-General and whoever the Minister chose were the signatories to the N282 billion and the EFCC Chairman and whatever it is were in charge of these monies. The PRTT never had an account. We were just a body established to sanitise. Even payment of pensioners, we never paid them. It was when we went for the biometrics that we realised that we had 73,000 fake personnels.
We now advised the office of the Head of Service ‘you cannot pay these 73,000.’ We gave them the list to pay and they were paying through the banks. Now, I will show you documents to attest to my claim. (Goes for the documents).
Now I am going to show documents to show that I had nothing to do with the N2.1 billion. Now, this is the contract for biometric payment to Innovative Solutions. The money was N161,475million. The person who wrote the letter was K.M. Lawal (Mrs.), Director of Pensions. This was on 10th June, 2010. That was the beginning of the biometric and it was recommended by Charles Bonnat who was the permanent Secretary, ERO and approved by the Head of Service. This is one of the documents. Where is Maina here? Why did I become part of the N2.1 billion that was spent? I was not part of any N2.1 billion.
They just want to link me up with that. They even took my secretary, old secretary and detained her for 10 days because she refused to write a lie and gave her a document to write. And they coerced her, gave her a document that she must write. She told me the names of the people who coerced her, one Rukaiyat Ibrahim, that’s what I heard, Habibu Adamu Aliyu, one Mr. Fagarinya and one other Yoruba person. She told me. Her family called me and told me this is what is happening to your secretary. They called her and coerced and said ‘look, we have been given an assignment to do, that you must write something against Maina, whatever it is. You collected money and gave to Maina.’ Who gave me money? Okay somebody told them he gave me a cheque and that he is a contractor and he gave me a cheque. In this age, somebody is saying he gave me money?
Let me ask you, is the EFCC not part of all these?
(Cuts in) They are part and parcel of all.
If they are part of it why would they be looking for you?
Now let me show you why the EFCC is part of the biometric exercise. This is a memo that they want to pay DTA of N56 million for police, EFCC, ICPC and DSS staff. Now, a chunk of the members going out for biometric capture are EFCC staff. I have their names. I have their account numbers. The same thing N104 million, Mrs. K.M. Lawal she wrote to the Head of Service through her permanent secretary, her permanent secretary recommended and Head of Service approved. She took the money and gave to EFCC staff and whoever that travelled. What has Maina got to do with that?
This is another sample. This is another sample of how…this is biometric money. How much is this? This was given to Adamson. Adamson is a personal assistant to Mrs. K.M. Lawal. Here is his name.
This is how they were spreading the money. She wrote it and the permanent secretary approved because the Head of Service travelled. This is even the document for the biometric. So how come that Maina is being accused of biometric that I know nothing about? Who gave me the money? Where did the money come in from?
Secondly, this is the document for the contract for the biometric. The person who applied was K.M. Lawal. Charles Bonnat who was the Permanent Secretary was the one who recommended and Head of Service approved. This is N65 million. This is N70 million for EFCC. Look at… it is for EFCC, ICPC personnel. Out of this N175 million, N56 was paid out to EFCC, ICPC, police, CIPPO, DSS, Head of Service, Customs, Immigration, prisons, Civil Defence, Attorney-General’s office, Accountant-General office staff.
All these people were those going for the biometrics. You can now see all these things are biometrics. Now, how then did I come to spending these monies? Let me tell you, these people in the pension office of the EFCC were asked to ensure that they nail Maina by any means possible. The next thing is that after I gave the federal government the intelligence and they got N1.3 trillion, I came back. I was working between the office of the Attorney-General’s Office and the security agencies…
(Cuts in) Let’s clear this point. Was it after you came back that you realised the N1.3 trillion?
That was even before I came back. I gave the intelligence. The Minister of Justice said it at the Senate hearing. He told them. I never wanted to talk about it, but because he said it that is why I am repeating it. Even the other recoveries I made I will never discuss it. It is left for government to say. I will never say it. It is because the Minister mentioned the N1.3 trillion that is why I am talking about it. After I came back, this process of reinstating me was taking place and the court judgement was sent to civil service commission.
They sat down, had a meeting and they sent it to the Head of Service. The Head of Service held a meeting and sent to the Minister of Interior; the Minister of Interior sat down and they came out with their report. (showing the report of the senior staff committee of the Ministry of Interior); the same thing with the Head of Service senior staff committee. All these people I do not even know any one of them. I think they are… how many of them (reaches out to the document again). They are about 25 of them. I do not know them.
They sat down and decided that, but in 2012, they were coerced to remove me. It was not done right so they decided now that I should return. So they did it and sent it to the Head of Service. The Head of Service Senior staff committee met and when they finished they sent it to the civil service committee. They met, discussed and decided ‘Okay let us return this guy back to his office like the court directed based on the recommendation of the senior staff committee of the Ministry of Interior and Head of Service, not based on the Minister’s letter.’
Let me correct this. The Minister only conveyed the court order to the civil service commission. The civil service commission sat down… they are intelligent people and they are independent of the office of the Minister. So they sat down and realised that something wrong happened. So they now went and rectified it. They rectified it and reposted me to the same ministry that I left.
I left Ministry of Interior as deputy director. Nobody promoted me. Nobody promoted me to the position of director. They advised that I should take the next promotion examination. Now, I am only trying to ask you do the right thing. The president wants us to sanitise this country; let’s help the president, give him the right advice; let him know exactly what is happening. I have documents to show where monies can be retrieved. I have staff, informants and a lot of people. Listen to me. This idea of whistle blowing stuff, the Association of whistle blowers came to me and met me in one of the security agencies’ office and told me that they have not been paid and they want me to come in.
They gave me a lot of information. I looked at the information and realised that I also had those information. Now, if somebody can go and get N1.6 trillion; now you sit down, you do not have a job other than paint my father’s house; my father who died almost 20 years ago, you are painting his house. That tells you that you are waiting for somebody.
That tells everybody now that you are working for somebody because if you are attacking me, go to any property that is mine. I am only telling you some of the rhetoric. People do not know the politics behind it.
There is one thing I want to clarify. The Chairman of EFCC, Ibrahim Magu came on air and said that he was going to go to Dubai, UK, America and he is going to fetch Maina and bring him back…
(Cuts in) That day I laughed. You know why I laughed. I laughed because Nigerians were being taken for a ride. How could Magu that I respect so much say that? But he lied. How can you say you are going to fetch me in Dubai, USA, UK when you know I am here in Nigeria with you? When you know I have been in Nigeria for ages. When you know I have been working with you. Common, common. I am tired of this and I feel I am not getting justice.
You were given an office when they reinstated you, is that correct?
Yes. They reinstated me and immediately when the pension thieves realised that I have been reinstated, they raised the alarm and somebody went and lied to Mr. President and Mr. President…I am sure Mr. President does not know…somebody came to tell me that Mr. President said ‘I am disengaged.’ I said ‘there is no way the president would know I did this and he would say I am disengaged’ because Mr. President is here to fight corruption and he would never allow corruption to fight back. And I am saying it is a lie. Somebody must have gone to put words in the mouth of Mr. President.
So, what do you want the presidency to do?
I am saying that why is it that the former SGF and other big personalities were accused of stealing monies, including big personalities in the Villa, nobody is talking about them. Maina who is just a deputy director whom the Minister of Justice has said the DSS has cleared of any wrongdoing. The National Security Adviser has cleared me of any wrongdoing. His office has also cleared me. The Senior Special Assistant to the President on Prosecution has cleared me of any wrongdoing and that I have no case to answer and then a small unit under the ministry will come and start fighting me for N2.1 billion.
Now, let’s take the issue of N2.1 billion. Now, I want the Federal Government to pay me five percent because this N1.3 trillion, I gave the government while I was not in office. So pay me the five percent of the N1.3 trillion, remove the N2.1 billion and give me the balance.
This is what I am asking. So are we trying to fight corruption in Nigeria or diverting attention by lying to Mr. President? Listen to me, Mr. President would have achieved more than what he has achieved. But because they are lying to Mr. President because they hate Maina, he won’t be able to achieve more. You hate me. I know why you hate me. You hate me because I am somebody who is bold. I know how to fetch the money.
I know how to follow the money. I know the money routes and somebody said to me the other time ‘why don’t I go and head the …and I said ‘I can’t go there because it is something I can do on my system, sitting down because I have the relevant software to go after these monies.’
We have talented people in Nigeria. Let’s start harnessing these talents and stop all these bickering and stuff out of the system. Nigerians have elected a very decent man as president and has given you the trust, please stop lying to him. Speak the truth and let’s move forward. We have so much to recover.
So what is happening to the pension thieves? Where are they? Are they still there?
Nigerians I want to say this. These 43 pension thieves are still standing trial. They have been standing trial for the last six years. You know why? EFCC staff tampered with the evidences because they don’t want these people to be prosecuted. I offered to be a star witness to get conviction because I have the documents to show to get conviction. They don’t want me.
You know why? Because they know if I get there these people will be convicted. You know why? Because they have collected monies from these guys. You know why? Because they took their houses and gave to their nephews, brothers, staff and sold to some people and so on. Now, they will never want to see Maina. They hate Maina like anything. I am the least person…let me ask you a question, if ICPC can arrest somebody, who arrests ICPC operatives if he does something wrong?
If I want to get immunity, I just go and engage in problem with ICPC and I start stealing because nobody comes after them because that is the height of the authority. No law enforcement agency is above the EFCC. None! It is wrong.
But the Senate has the powers to question the activities of the EFCC.
I don’t want to get into that politics because that is political. Me I can only talk about what I know and what I can do for Nigeria